Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
Hi and welcome to another AOGP Outside of the Church podcast. I'm here with Arthur Mudakis and we are season eight, episode 15. This one is titled God versus Scientology. This will get some views like you said. People are like what.
Speaker 2:
They said what. Those blasphemers. So the idea on this is and we finished a conversation before the podcast and should have recorded it and I said, all right, let's do this and do some compare and contrast. You know, versus, versus god and what. What is god and and it doesn't? It doesn't matter what religion it is, what is it? What is it god on this planet? What does it signify to you, arthur?
Speaker 3:
okay, that's a question. I wasn't prepared for God on this planet. Well, I think the current viewpoint around God on this planet would be along the lines of a being greater than us. Right, the being that created us and the being that I don't know, can you say, owns us or does God?
Speaker 2:
own us.
Speaker 3:
Depends on who you talk to. It does, actually it does, and I suppose in many cases it's more the word of God as well, because there's different sides God, the being himself, the word of God, and then the inner God, and people that are anti-religion will refer to God as universe.
Speaker 2:
Right A source other than yourself. That's right Something greater than you.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, a source other than you or the group? Yeah, a source other than you or the group in a first dynamic sense in Scientology, or a second and third dynamic. And you know, in Scientology the quote unquote supreme being is dynamic eight. And then, in 52, hallerich says that the eighth dynamic is a summation of all of the other dynamics, which I think is interesting to say is the supreme being. So it is quote unquote, everything else put together and we don't have a dynamic that says universes. So the eighth dynamic, the seventh or the eighth dynamic, has to be as close as we get to to universes, but as far as causality, it's left open to you.
Speaker 3:
You know, for, for whatever you want to think, well, in some cases, yes, but some, some faiths believe otherwise. Yeah, so some faiths believe you have the choice of doing good or bad, and whichever you choose, you'll either be rewarded or punished by. And then other faiths believe that it's already been set for you You've come into this world and your life has already been created, from birth to death. And it's really interesting those two variations around the same god, different faiths, but the same god.
Speaker 2:
yeah, yeah, so it's, it's. It's interchangeable, depending dependent upon your, your or the group. You're in's viewpoint of that supposed emanation point yes, pretty much, pretty much.
Speaker 3:
So. I've just um brought up the meaning of god here, the definition um. So the first definition is the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority, the supreme being, the supreme being, so one one being. But then the second definition, a superhuman being or spirit worshipped as having power over nature or human fortunes, a deity of some kind. So just out of those first two definitions we've got two very different aspects of God. One can be a God in the human form.
Speaker 2:
Which is really interesting, what suits the situation or what allows you to explain things, and this is my, my opinion. It's not necessarily scientology opinion, but obviously it's. It's tainted with my understanding of it. What you put a label on to explain things that you don't understand, god works in mysterious ways oh see again.
Speaker 3:
You said it twice now and I reacted the same way yeah, so I just want to. I just want to point out just quickly. So my background is greek orthodox and I do. I do still enjoy that, that side of my my Even though I'm studying Scientology and the two may conflict, but I actually believe Scientology actually helped me understand it even more. Silly as that sounds.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, that's what LRH says. It'll help you have a better understanding of your own faith, because Scientology isn't a faith-based quote-unquote religious philosophy. Slash religion. You can be anything else and be a Scientologist at the same time, so that's good and I wholeheartedly agree with that.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with that, because if I go to look at the bible and at the moment I'm I'm looking at the king james bible um, and that's the second um english translation, because the bible before that was the geneva bible, which is written in old english, and then before that it was um ancient Greek, I'm pretty sure. Yes, and it's interesting because I actually have a copy of the Geneva Bible and the King James Bible and what I find interesting between the two is one's written in old English and one's written in more modern English for its time. You know, we've got to consider it's a pretty old book written in English, as it was back then. Um, and then learning how to study, you know.
Speaker 3:
Again going back to that very basic course, you know, it opened my eyes to start looking up some words and and it's what I found really interesting was adam. You know adam and eve, so it's actually spelled ad dash, am. It's not one word, adam. And when you look up what the adam means, it actually means earth, dirt, and god created man from dirt. And I think to myself how can this be confused?
Speaker 2:
Well, and I think I have an answer for that. And again, I can't verify this, this is just my hypothesis. Supposition is, what we see now is the same thing that you saw with these different iterations of these stories that were passed down created. You know they weren't all created at the same time is things get changed through cultural appropriation.
Speaker 3:
Yep.
Speaker 2:
And definitions get changed. You see definitions change in dictionaries from year to year. You see words get added that weren't in the dictionary before. It is the same exact phenomena. People keep changing things and so it's an interpretation, and you know they didn't know about the misunderstood word.
Speaker 3:
Yep.
Speaker 2:
That's right. And hardly anybody. I mean, you know, the Jesuit priests were the only ones that could read in the Dark Ages what happened before then. So this stuff was passed down and so at some point maybe it went from AD-EM and then somebody said, oh, Adam, Okay.
Speaker 3:
A-B-A-M.
Speaker 2:
So there you go. It's a misunderstood right out of the gate, because they didn't know how to read and they were just doing it phonically. And then they learned how to read and said well, that makes sense to me. Look good to you, George. Yeah, it looks good to me. Okay, let's put it in there. So the Jesuit priest put it in his Adam. I mean, it could have been that simple. And they make up a new definition for it has to be.
Speaker 3:
I mean even the apple. It's not even an apple, it doesn't't say apple. It took me four or five goes and I actually heard a Jewish rabbi talking about the story of Adam and Eve and he actually says it doesn't say fruit. And I'm like hang on, I was only just looking at it. So I went back, opened it up, had a look and I'm like, wow, even I reading it, saw, saw the word apple, yeah it was free and it doesn't even say it, yeah and that, but that one.
Speaker 3:
I'm really unsure how that one came about. You know, how is it that, even though it says fruit, how did it turn out to be an apple? Where did this come from? And, like you were saying just then, the way these words are being twisted, thrown in confusion, distractions, don't look this way.
Speaker 2:
Right Appropriation. Look that way. Instead, right Appropriation, anthrop Appropriation, anthropomorphizing, I mean they did it with the snake Snake talks, snake talks and it's a reptile. Yeah Huh, a reptile. Really, that's interesting.
Speaker 2:
I mean, you know however far you want to go with it, you know, and the influence that quote-unquote supposed reptile races from other star systems have had on this planet. Scientology not mentioning it once. Not once does it get mentioned in scientology. I want to point that out. So that's not a scientology thing. David eich has been really pushed that one and I I don't. I don't necessarily disagree with it, but it is interesting to me that they've anthropomorphized a reptile to be the one that pushes people in directions that they wouldn't normally go. It's used as an allegory for something. Obviously. So is the apple, so is Adam. These are all sort of poking in the ribs of the elbow.
Speaker 3:
Get it, get it, huh yeah, pretty much and so it goes off in another direction well, even with the reptilian aspect um, you know, there's two sides to that as well like a reptilian race, as in an alien race that either was or will be in the future, um, or what if it's an aspect of us that is so cold, it is so brutal, it is the reptilian it'll eat another.
Speaker 2:
It'll eat another human just to survive right, right, I mean they've gone as well yeah, they've gone as far as to say, okay, the brain is in these, these sections, and one grew over the other and there's a reptilian brain in there, and that you know, that is the cold, calculating dark, you know. And, okay, all right, we are our brains, I get it. Okay, this is what you're trying to say. Interiorize us some more. That's my viewpoint. That's my viewpoint when I know that I'm a spiritual being and you're telling me, you know, it's your reptilian brain that made you do that with that girl.
Speaker 2:
Okay, bodies, bodies are one thing, spiritual beings are another. And that brings that, brings me to a point that I think that how is it that an all-seeing, all-knowing being would take the form, anthropomorphized again into the form of, well, jesus? I mean, when I was a kid, my parents had a picture of Jesus on the wall over their bed when I was like three, and it's that one of jesus that you see all over the place. It's a white guy. It's a white guy with long brown hair, handsome fella, you know, got a beard and all that stuff. What? No, if, if he came from jerusalem, he wasn't white.
Speaker 3:
And then you have come on, john, don't be like that but do you do this?
Speaker 2:
you know, you know, god made man in his own image. We sure about that. We sure about that is, that is that in the, in the king james bible.
Speaker 3:
You know, yes, yes, yes, I think it, it was um, he created man in our image. But what's interesting? Actually it's funny that you mentioned that as well, because there's this word good. And what does good mean, john?
Speaker 2:
It means something opposite of harmful or bad In a behavioral sense. In the behavioral sense. In the behavioral sense, yeah, it's. Is it something that you that that is not harmful for you and um or others? So it's something that is helpful, helpful, yeah okay.
Speaker 3:
Do you have a car? I have a car does.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, it's in good condition.
Speaker 3:
Exactly. Is it behaving well?
Speaker 2:
It behaves well and does not leave me at the roadside without transportation, though it's very difficult to get it to start with the push button, unless I really push in on that clutch hard and stretch those tendons and press that button. Then it is not good and I curse it all the time. Why did toyota make this so hard? So it's it's good is a relative term. It's a relative term. What's good compared to what you can't? Well, you know it's not flat out everything.
Speaker 3:
Everything is good yeah, and that's just it. Like when, when god was creating the world or creating the earth, um, you know, he created plants and saw that they were good as in, they were functioning exactly as they should be. They weren't behaving a certain way, they were actually functioning, which is what made them good. It's not saying, you know, even if the plant grew bad fruit, then technically the plant is still good in its form and it's doing exactly what it's supposed to, according to its environment. It's functioning just fine as it is. So you could almost say an alcoholic is good as an alcoholic functioning exactly the way an alcoholic should. Yeah, now you can judge his behavior. You know if he's done something morally incorrect, which again is a very flexible concept as well, because depending on what society deems as a moral will determine whether it's a good act or a bad act.
Speaker 2:
But technically, everything in this world ugly, beautiful is good for what it is right now again, like, since it's a relative term and and I think I've said something about this in a podcast somewhere we've done enough of now I lose track. Good, good is you. You buy your apples for five cents a piece, and then good is you sell your apples for 12 cents a piece. So you're taking the apples you bought for five and you're selling them for 12 and you're making seven cents a piece. That's good, that's a good. That's a good, that's a good profit. Now, where I'm heading with this is is that in our society, it's good to take advantage of somebody else and make a profit, as much of a profit as you can, and then somebody comes up to you and says wow, you did good. Huh yeah, huh yeah.
Speaker 3:
You, just you know George.
Speaker 2:
Carlin said in one of his standup bits that you know, business is which businessman can f*ck the other businessman harder and faster than the other. A good one, a good one, that's it. It's just business. It's just business, it's good for business. You know, mark Zuckerberg is like don't you guys ever at Facebook, ever, ever, stop all of the infighting on Facebook? That is where we make our meat and potatoes and those are the people we sell our advertising to. We have to keep them embroiled with each other because it's good for business.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, and isn't it funny? That's just one word.
Speaker 2:
One word Four letters. Yeah, what is it? Where is it in the Bible where it says and there's something, where something happens, and it says and it was good, it's in the first few pages.
Speaker 3:
And it was good In the creation.
Speaker 2:
Yeah.
Speaker 3:
In the creation story. Yeah, before Adam and Eve. So this is before man came into being. And even there it's interesting when because God created the Adam out of clay and he breathed life into him, and so this being created from the elements of the earth came into form and then, all of a sudden, life was breathed into him, which I think is really interesting. It's like no different to a spirit occupying a body, if you will, or a thetan occupying a body, right taking a body on. When the thetan leaves the body, what is it? It's just an inanimate object. The body what is it? It's just an inanimate object. And then, the moment you add a thetan to that body, all of a sudden it becomes illuminated, doesn't it right?
Speaker 2:
and it gains, I think. What is it in an ounce or two? They've noticed that when the thetan leaves the body, the body isn't, is a is a, slightly lighter than it was without the thetan, its sticking its satanic finger into it and and breathing life into it.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, it's pretty incredible that that's an amazing experiment too.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, it's, it's. It says something that you know, that there's, there's something going on here. And even back in the day, they, they were trying to convey these concepts as best they could, for the way what they had as a language I mean English has more descriptive words than any other language on the planet. And back then I mean, you know, there's lots of languages where you're just, you're at a loss, literally at a loss for words, because there's no way to describe these, these higher tier at the time concepts. So of course they couldn't convey things the way that they needed to be able to convey them.
Speaker 2:
And that's one of the things in Scientology we we talked about. When was it? We talked about it the other day. You and I were where the way LRH it crafts what he says so well and it's so simple but so deep at the same time. They didn't have that capability, so they had to had to say this is like that. They had to use analogs a lot of time, they had to use allegories because they had no way to describe it, and then it was translated and translated, and translated, translated. Is it any wonder?
Speaker 3:
yes, yes, which brings us back to this word, this three-letter word, now one letter. Less than good, actually, now that I think about it god g-o-d, good g-o-o-d, oh my god right, right, and, and that's that's I mean.
Speaker 2:
You know, what is it with that? With what is it? What did that originally mean when somebody said, oh my god, I don't know? I've always wondered that you know. You know, oh my god, or oh my another one is, you know, oh my lord, good lord, yes, you know, I saw a guy hit his head in reno, nevada, one day on the corner of his slide out on his his fifth wheel camper, and he man, he knocked it. He was like lord and I was like I felt bad for the guy because I know it really hurts to hit a corner of a slide out, but I just thought, what? What does that expression mean, good Lord? Why did you do that to me? Lord, you get what I'm saying.
Speaker 3:
I know, and while you're saying this, I say things like that all the time, jesus.
Speaker 2:
Christ.
Speaker 2:
Yeah right, and it's usually out of frustration. Yeah, yeah, there's. That just made me think of this scene in the. The movie used cars that came out in like 1980 with kurt russell and it's, and it's a funny f*cking movie. This guy's so religious and they find out the storyline. You know that that there's been a lie on the line. The guy's so religious and they find out the storyline. You know that that, that there's been a lie on the line. The guy's like Jesus Christ almighty, Jesus Christ almighty. You know, and you see these people do this and and, and you know, is it Lord, protect me, or?
Speaker 3:
Yeah, god help me.
Speaker 2:
God help me, god help me, I will turn this car around.
Speaker 3:
you know, these things have all these these influences, god good and it's funny because, like, if we consider the word good, like we were saying before, and the many ways it's used in in the bible, it's used a particular way, yeah, to say that the thing's functioning exactly as it is, it's good, it's working great, you don't need to change it one bit, it's doing just fine as it is. But then this word god comes into it, right? So if we look at how the word good has been distorted so much, then how much has this word God been distorted, right? What does this word even mean?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, well, you, you, you, you. And that made me think of when I was a kid in the Midwest. You, you go to a friend's house or something I do a sleepover, and they'd pray before dinner. It was God is great, god is good, let us thank him for our food, amen. And I would go yay, god, yeah, yeah, yeah, cause I wasn't of that, that, that faith, but you're, it's good, and it's good, and it's God.
Speaker 2:
They're almost synonymous Good God. You know goodness is God. You know you're following along with the, the, the things that are delineated. I'm not going to go as far as to say doctrines and be a jerk, but you're you're given. This is the information, this is the way you know. I mean you see this in this Star Wars, boba Fett series for the Boba Fett's society, this is the way. I mean. How close is that to things that they were saying in the 1600s with the pilgrims that came to America and everything like that. It had to be put down that this is what you do, that's good, that's God, that's right, that's right. Somebody had to tell people this is what you know. I mean the Ten Commandments you might know. Originally there were more than Ten Commandments. I mean Mel Brooks made fun of it he had three tablets.
Speaker 2:
Mel Brooks. Yeah that's right. Moses dropped these 15, these Ten Commandments.
Speaker 3:
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:
Oh well, it's broken.
Speaker 3:
We don't know what it said anymore, that was gold. Yeah, so well, here's one for you, and I believe this is one that's been left out. Um, don't quote me on it for certain, but listen to this commandment thou shall not create, engraven images by the hand or by the mind thou shalt not create engraving images by the hand or by the mind how similar is that to uh what um they do in in islam and what is forbidden?
Speaker 3:
that you can't create a picture of muhammad or photographs, yeah, um, yeah, which which I think is really interesting and I have to say, I actually really agree with it well, I mean draw a picture of a thetan form.
Speaker 2:
You can't, it's that space between you and me right, yeah right, you can't, and is that what they were trying to say? Is Thayton has no matter, no energy, no space, no time, and we've done podcasts where I try to get across to people, get a concept of something without using a word, a letter or a symbol, and you can do it. But the thing is, is that and, and you know, like you're saying, is they're saying and, and I think, like you say, I think that's a, it's a good thing. Stop symbolizing everything in the physical universe.
Speaker 3:
God may not have a form well, what if it was even simpler? What's the what's? Two of the biggest parts of the auditor's code?
Speaker 2:
Don't invalidate, don't evaluate or invalidate.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:
Why.
Speaker 2:
Because it's not good.
Speaker 3:
Because it creates impressions, doesn't it. Right yeah, Right yeah. And those impressions. You have no idea how the pc will take them right how they'll respond.
Speaker 2:
Because they start mocking up mass going no, it's this, because they're parrying. They're parrying to your. No, it's this and it's a wrong indication. And then you start creating mental mass, physical universe, mass, same thing, and and down the dwindling shoot, you go yep.
Speaker 3:
So imagine, I came to you and I'm like wow, john, I see this thetan on you and it looks like this and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, I just passed on an engraving image to your mind using my words. Now, what if I made a clay statue of this and I showed it to you? What happens? An image of that imprints in your body, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:
Right Now, you have not just a self-created image or picture, you have a physical universe image or picture, a likeness of it, and that makes it even worse. I mean, you know, and this is this, yes, this is one of the reasons why lrh gave up creative processing is because when you do creative processing, you were creating mental debris that caused more mental mass. So you know these, these concepts, not so dissimilar between you know what, what the bible is talking about and what scientology is talking about, if you can read between the lines and how you in in reading between the lines, how you interpret this stuff, which is really, really interesting. Yeah.
Speaker 3:
Well, the only way out really is to read it for yourself. That's the only way.
Speaker 2:
What did you get?
Speaker 3:
out of that, Like the material in Scientology, you have to read it. You can't just listen to it, you have to physically read it. You have to take the time to know it and understand it. Clear the words you know and you can't mess it up. If you take that process, you can't mess it up. Yeah, Now I can say that you know. Yeah, I've got a really strong faith and I'm listening to lectures all the time, I'm listening to preachers, but I haven't taken the time to actually read it and learn what these words are. Yeah, am I going to get the full context of you know what's being presented?
Speaker 2:
right and I've always. I've always, and I don't know why, I've always viewed the bible much in the way that I view the bard Shakespeare, because I was looking at Shakespeare for you.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, Supposedly Shakespeare was. There are those who say that Shakespeare was Sir Francis Bacon and there's an interesting correlation there. But I took English classes in high school and stuff Granted just high school, where you know they'd read something from a sonnet and they'd go okay, what does that mean to you? And you know it's completely open to interpretation, but there's a lot of good stuff in there. But you have to sort it out for yourself, because what it means to me and what it means to you could be two totally different things. Even if you cleared those words in Shakespearean terms and translated them into modern English, it still means one thing to one person. It still means another. The Bible is the same way, 100%, 100%.
Speaker 2:
Which is weird to me that it's that way. You know it's, it's not, it's it's vague but it's direct. It's direct but it's vague. And you know, I, I there's. I think that there's a lot of good data to be had in the Bible, in the Quran and the quran and incredible.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, you just go. Why aren't we hearing about this? What do?
Speaker 2:
you think yeah, right, right, right right, we, we can't have good, we don't, we don't want good, good doesn't sell newspapers and advertising. So you know, these, these, these books were were written down and and passed around verbally and everything over time, because people didn't read for a very, very long time. It wasn't until the gutenberg press was developed that reading actually caught on. So you know, there's, there's, there's a lot of vagueness in it based off of that, and king james, I mean, you know, is far darker than the new testament.
Speaker 3:
Right, you know is is well, yeah, we won't go into the, we won't go into the politics of that, but, um, but here's an interesting one for you and not many people know this and it's easy to find and it's a legitimate thing. So, king James, before he did the King James Bible, he was an avid writer very interesting fellow King James but he actually wrote a book and he called it the Book on Demonology. James, but he actually wrote a book and he called it the book on demonology, and you can, you can find this book, and what an interesting read, very interesting read. And what's interesting is that's how, um, william Shakespeare, from King James's book of demonology, came up with the Macbeth. Um, I believe that came up with the Macbeth story. I believe that, yeah, like, when you look at the history of some of these things as well, it's just like come on, you can't be serious.
Speaker 2:
Right how these things are all tied in together. You know what I mean. You know it's that everything is derivative from everything else. That's the James Burke series on pbs connections how we go from chicken poop to the nuclear bomb in this episode yes, pretty much this caused this caused that.
Speaker 2:
And this guy said well, screw that, we're gonna do this. We don't like you guys, and so we're gonna come up with and you know, and it just bounces around, and from the most innocuous places come the most ridiculous solutions that then cause somebody to do something else.
Speaker 3:
So yeah, it's pretty interesting though, is that the intent?
Speaker 2:
and was that the intent that uh was was trying to be caused? Probably not, but this is how things work in in the bible is used to uh. Well, we don't really know what the intent was, we don't know what the intent of the quran was, but you know these, these, all of these places are pretty close together in the middle east. I mean, you know, you look at israel and here it is. You've got one place and three different viewpoints, and why they don't get along? Because it all has some sort of significance to them, above and above and beyond what it really is, and it's a matter of viewpoint as to what it really is for them. And boy, that's a great way to create infighting isn't it?
Speaker 3:
yeah, thou shall not create engraving images by the hand or by the mind right, and what do they go do?
Speaker 2:
well, the rest, just that. Yeah, the rest is the rest is history, just that. So, and it's interesting it's interesting to me as well that um, on the cover of um, the scientology fundamentals of thought from the late 60s, early 70s, lrh puts the r6 god on the cover. It's the old man with the beard that you see on the modern day Scientology ethics book. That's the R6 God and this is something that's on the whole track. You run into it on OT2. This was the image of this individual that was used to imprint this particular thing on it and this is so similar to what people anthropomorphize god into, what he looks like. That's right and that's an image of god. When you, when you, when, if you walk with people on the street and you'd say what does god look like, you'd probably get some people that say, well, it doesn't look like anything. But a lot of people would say it was an old man with a gray beard and gray hair. And what would happen if God looked?
Speaker 2:
just like you. Well, see, that's the whole thing, like the movie in the 70s with George Burns oh God, john Denver stars in it with George Burns and he comes, god comes and talks to john denver's character and says I have some work for you to do. And john denver basically publicizes that he has spoken to god and how much he is vilified. You, you and this is a great point for this podcast you, you spoke to god. You're just a grocery store manager. God would come and talk to you and he has to go to court and everything. In the end and I'm sorry I'm going to spoil the movie, but he has to go to court and god, god, comes into the courtroom and takes the stand in court. You don, you don't see him until he walks past the gates which has its own significance in American court and everything, if you know about the real story takes the stand and appears in the chair as George Burns, as God, and has to testify and answers all of these questions and is cross-examined by lawyers.
Speaker 2:
It's a great movie. I'm surprised they haven't remade it, because the point of the whole thing is anybody, anybody, could be contacted by Jesus Christ or God. And if Jesus Christ came back on this planet. If LRH came back, the church would sue him. The church would sue him for violation of copyright I was just thinking about it the other day and I was like that's exactly what they would do.
Speaker 2:
They would sue him and say that there's no way you are L Ron Hubbard and you will not take our bank accounts, you will not take our property. What would happen to Jesus? What would happen if God appeared in a courtroom? Somebody said you know, put your hand on the Bible. You know, I swear to tell the whole truth, nothing but the truth. So help me, God. And God goes ah, ah, ding, Wait a minute, Because he says he's not. He has no place in government.
Speaker 3:
In the bible that they mix, thanks here's a thought for you what if god means truth?
Speaker 2:
that would not surprise me one bit.
Speaker 3:
Just while we we're talking, it just sort of you know it just popped in my mind, you know, because if you were a truthful being and I wholeheartedly agree with what Ron Hubbard says where man is good, yeah man is basically good To the core man is good, basically good. Yeah, and you know, sometimes the truth gets distorted. Which will elaborate a human being?
Speaker 2:
yeah, okay, right, that's why auditing works.
Speaker 3:
Truth got distorted just a little bit yeah, which which goes to misunderstandings and misunderstood and and all that kind of thing. And then it goes to withholds, it goes to overt acts, it goes to motivators, justifications held down sevens, yeah, um, yeah, all that kind of stuff. Um, so, what, if, what, if, what, if that's what god is. Truth to the core and how often do we go against our own truth, like how many times have you made a decision where you knew you should have done, but then you did completely different, completely different?
Speaker 2:
And that is why the book was written as a set of cautionary tales. Yeah, why did Jesus get upset and overturn the table in the temple? That's right. With the money changers, he had every right to be upset. It was untrue.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, yeah, they weren't behaving good.
Speaker 2:
Right, they weren't behaving good. Right, they weren't behaving good. So, you know, I, I mean, I really think that that's that's what it comes down to is, is there really isn't that much of a difference at all from one religion to another versus scientology? Comparing this to that is it's. You know, hey, knock that sh*t off. Be good, stay good, do good unto others and, and you know, in some ways you know the, the, the reverence of some other thing, whether real or imagined, that makes you irresponsible. I don't think that that was the original intent. That's just my opinion. I don't think that was the original intent of the Bible, I agree, is to. You know, god works in mysterious ways and all that stuff. I think that that came along later for people who had well, they had other purposes and it stopped being good and they tried to justify their actions by saying well, look, this is what it says here. I, I could see that happening very, very easily on this planet, especially yeah, I think we have the ability of messing up a sh*t sandwich.
Speaker 3:
You know how hard is it to make a sh*t sandwich. It's bread, bread, sh*t bread, right.
Speaker 2:
But no.
Speaker 3:
I want barbecue sauce on my sh*t sandwich.
Speaker 2:
Well.
Speaker 3:
I want onions on my sh*t sandwich Right.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, and we haven't even broached the subject of Lucifer. That's a whole other podcast. And what that's supposed to represent, and you know the the devil, is he good, is he bad? What does it represent?
Speaker 2:
that would be, that would be a podcast for tomorrow to turn, and you know sort that whole, that whole mess out, because I mean, you know, depending on who you talk to, based off of what's what's said in the Bible and all of the books that weren't published with the Bible, there's some information that is left out, anything about anything that says that I am pro, or we are pro the devil, or anything like that, because there are people that cross scientology into, uh, anton levay and and you know all of the, the dealings that lrh had with some of these guys that came up with the dark arts and everything and you know, at the end of the day, all this sh*t is just trying to convey that there's more going on than we have a way to get it across, and they're pointing out saying, hey, check this sh*t out, you can conjure this, or you can conjure that, or you can. You know, yeah, you can, there's a lot of stuff you can do. That has become he who shall not be mentioned type of a thing.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:
And that's but even praying is a conjuration. Right, right. I mean, you know that's the modern day version. Is the secret or Scientology a postulate? It's the same thing.
Speaker 3:
Yes. The same thing, just because it's created in the mind, it doesn't mean it's not affecting something or creating something.
Speaker 2:
Mean it's not affecting something right or creating something, a whole new consciousness, yeah, right, and, and, and you know you have a thought, or you, you put a whole new consciousness there. Well, that's not good, huh, okay, all right, it says you, you know, yeah, so you know, know it's. It's the power, the power of choice has a lot to do with with religion, as to whether I am the captor of my fate and the master of my soul or somebody else is. And that's modern day. That's what it's come down to. And the the numbers are shrinking in in those who attend religious services massively in the last 20 years, massively. They are losing steam. We are growing up as a society away from that sort of a thing and I've got to be honest, I don't know how I feel about that.
Speaker 3:
I don't know either. I have to be honest. Um, I certainly don't feel good about it because, at least I mean, look, nothing's perfect, full stop. Any society, any group or anything like that, will have its SPs, no doubt about it.
Speaker 3:
But as an overall they're going to be there, no doubt about it. But as an overall they're going to be there. But as an overall it does instill good qualities and some kind of moral order. And slowly, slowly, it's being taken away, drip by drip, by drip by drip, and even some churches are converting and going against their actual faith to accommodate current society. Predilections, topics, issues, vices, without saying what I want to say. Right right. I'll just withhold that.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, it's funny to me when you see people. If you look at early images that were created, that were associated with the bible and everything, and people who are penitent and they have their head down and they're looking, looking at at the bible. You see that a lot in the old images and then modern day, you, you go out to a restaurant or you go anywhere where there's other people other than you, your own family, even your own family and you see the silhouette of a person with their head down and what are they looking at?
Speaker 3:
their phone yes, oh, good one it's the same image.
Speaker 2:
It's the same image and I was like, wait, hold on, is it? Wow, yeah, what is this, you know? Does it mean anything, or am I just dubbing in completely on this and making something that it isn't? But it's worshiping a source and people look at their phones. I mean you go to a restaurant and there's a couple or a family, and the entire family has gone to a restaurant to have dinner with each other, and they're looking at their phones.
Speaker 3:
Yeah.
Speaker 2:
That's what I think has happened. That's why I think you don't see as much activity people going to church. I mean, we have a church right across the street and the parking lot's full every Sunday, wednesday and Friday. There are enough people there, there's more cars and they're parking in the grass and all that. And it's a hundred year old church, so that's alive and well. But globally speaking, the attendance to Sunday services and things like that are at an all time low, because they'd rather be worshiping their phones as a source reference for information, because if it's on the internet, it must be true.
Speaker 3:
Well, what about Scientology? What are the numbers like in Scientology?
Speaker 2:
The corporate church of Scientology is the fastest shrinking religion on the planet.
Speaker 3:
So even it's going backwards as well it.
Speaker 2:
So even it's going backwards, its numbers have had are a mere fraction, a mere fraction of what they were 30 years ago. It is ridiculous and that is because of the mismanagement, because of the alteration, because the truth, you know, because people are attracted to truth, like you said, you know good god truth. They're like okay, there, like you said, you know good God truth, they're like, okay, there's, there's, there's some good data here. I'm going to do this, I'm going to go to church on Sundays. Same with Scientology it's some good data here. I'm going to, I'm going to do courses, I'm going to get auditing Scientology. That you see with other religions. But the people that adhere to and have a strong third dynamic are the ones who are doing best in life. That has been my observation time and time and time again, that you know Datons work better in numbers than they do by themselves fresh my memory.
Speaker 2:
The third dynamic is third dynamic is you and a group, a group of individuals with a common goal, a common reality. I'm, I'm, I'm a catholic, I'm a scientologist, I'm, I'm muslim, I'm, you know, sure, uh, these these things, that's where the strength is, is where there's this bond, this arc, and understanding that this is the direction that we're supposed to work in now. The opposite side of that is getting anything done in a group outside of that. Outside of that, is nigh near impossible, because there's so, so much aberration on the third dynamic. It's weird, it's so weird how you can if, if everybody goes to church on sunday and I mean you look at, um, what are the? The guys where they raise the, they take the. The whole community raises a barn in the weekend in in Missouri, pennsylvania, the Amish, the Amish.
Speaker 3:
How fantastic was that. I couldn't believe that when I saw it.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I mean I was so warmed by that Right Right, I look at that and go I want some of that.
Speaker 3:
I'm there with you a hundred percent, like what a community yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:
And then I I've talked to them, I bought baked goods from them, I pet their horses nicest people I mean. You see them in the mennonites, both in missouri, all the time, you know, going to walmart and they have, they have cell phones, but they draw the line at certain things. They'll play a video game and those are the progressive ones. But the amish, you know they're yep and they keep it that way. But boy, they get sh*t done and they get excellent products.
Speaker 3:
God damn, you know why can't there be more of that mentality yeah, mennonite same way, I agree, I agree, yeah, I agree 100. Yeah, I agree 100%.
Speaker 2:
What is it about?
Speaker 3:
that you kind of look at their lifestyle and their actually, and also you know how at a certain age they let them go into society and then I think they've got to do two years in society to experience our world in a sense, and the return rate is actually really high. So because after they do that they have to make a decision whether they dedicate the rest of their lives to the Amish way part of their village or if they choose to abandon it. And I was actually surprised that the rate was that high that they actually go back. I actually would have thought the Western world would have consumed them, but it wasn't the case.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, and let me tell you, when they go to church, you know it, you know it, I mean it is a packed house, buggies and horses everywhere, and they're not nuts, they are not insane by any stretch of the imagination, they are so well grounded and they don't use, they don't? You know? It's not like some Southern Baptist who's sitting there telling you how to do things, what to do, and you know you blaspheme her. You know none of that. There's no evaluation, no invalidation. They grant you being this and when their word is gold, when they say they're going to do something, boy, they do it.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and even as a community. If one of the families requires hospital care, so they're actually outside of the legal system because they're not a threat to society, so they're not a menace. Which means if they go to a hospital they have to pay full price for any hospital services and if it's a large price that the family requires, the whole village puts in to help pay for that medical care. They all contribute to make sure that that person's well looked after.
Speaker 3:
That's what you call it. It's not like you know what your problem. Your problem sell your house. That'll get you going.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, yeah, what's in it?
Speaker 3:
for me, everybody comes in.
Speaker 2:
Yeah.
Speaker 3:
There's none of that.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, there's none of that, and that is absolutely the best way to go in that type of thing. What's the greatest good for the greatest number? You hear that from scientologists all the time and it's used to justify committing some crazy ass overt, whereas in that situation that you just described, that's the greatest good for the greatest number. This guy helped me, help me put my, my, my barn up, helped me with my house, showed me how to do proper angles, tongue and groove furniture. I mean, you know, you just go, you know yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:
So you know, if somebody says well, you guys are really being biased and all this stuff, and it's this pro-scientology, independent scientology, and all this stuff. No, this is a compare and contrast, yep.
Speaker 3:
And things can definitely be improved. I think the Amish are the perfect representation of how faith should be understood, should be wholeheartedly, and I do wholeheartedly also believe that Ron Hubbard, through his work, was trying to create such a society himself.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I would agree, and it definitely takes a lot of horsepower to do something like that, and I'm not just saying on LRH's part it takes a lot of horsepower to do something like that, and I'm not just saying on lrh's part it it takes a lot of horsepower for any single person to do that right. It's not an easy task, it isn't, and in somehow they've managed, they've they've managed to to pull that one off. And you know, like, like hubbard says, power is the ability to hold a position in space.
Speaker 3:
they're still around which is a big statement. That's not a small statement. Yeah, it's hard and they are still around. It's incredible they haven't been.
Speaker 2:
Lucifer hasn't got to them yeah, lucifer hasn't gotten to them and and you know they're going down, going down the road, a highway, you know, a two-lane, one-way, each way highway. In a buggy going maybe, maybe at best 10 to 15 miles an hour. You know, yeah, and they'll get there and it doesn't bother them.
Speaker 3:
You know when they're okay with it at all, like how grounding is that right? You know what have you got. You've got the smell of your horse. You've got fresh air. You've got whatever weather, you have to handle it, you have to deal with it yeah, and, and you know the, the wife and kids are in the back.
Speaker 2:
I've never seen a woman drive the buggy and the guy's sitting up there. You know ass.
Speaker 2:
out in cold weather in the middle of the winter, you know there's there's hot air coming out of his his his nose and mouth and the horses, and it's freezing and he's up there being the goddamn man of the family and getting them to wherever they need to go taking a slow boat to China, but they're getting it done and, by God, they're going to have a great meal and they're going to have a warm bed and they have decency and courtesy with each other and I've never, ever, ever seen any infighting with them. No, ever, ever. And I've been around them, uh, quite a bit, and they're the sweetest, nicest people. That's. You know, that's the good side of of what something can do, given the right conditions, and and and people adhering to that. That's a wonderful thing. Yes, a wonderful thing. I think so.
Speaker 3:
They're the true essence of what a community should be.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 3:
It is good, yeah, and it's funny because a lot of Native communities operate not much differently.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, yeah, I mean, there are other places on the planet where these sorts of things happen and it is possible to do that, and a lot of the tenets that are in these things that we're talking about here in the last few minutes do exist in Scientology, but it's only as good as you use it and you apply it and you understand it.
Speaker 3:
You can take anything and turn it into bad and a weapon and I think the hard part about it as well is the english language as well, and the words contained in it too. You know, like this word god, like yours, like mine, like good, like evil, like him, her, all these kinds of words are really dangerous. They sound really innocent, they sound really simple, but they're actually really dangerous. Like if we didn't have the word mine and or the words mine and yours, what do we have?
Speaker 2:
A lot simpler thing, and that's because the possession and we get back to the capitalism thing. That's not terribly healthy. It's not terribly healthy. I mean the Amish, where's capitalism in the Amish society.
Speaker 3:
Look, there are very secret society, john. Maybe it happens and we just don't know about it. Maybe, I've got a duck, you've got a hammer.
Speaker 2:
What do you say? You know, I mean, you know there's something to be said for that. You know, I've got a duck. Duck makes eggs. You can have more ducks as female. Is it male? What kind of duck do you have? I'll tell you what. Tell you what. I'll give you a pair, but I need that hammer. And then the other guy says what do you need the hammer for? Well, I, I'm trying to do this. I'll be over in 10 minutes. That's not capitalism. That's not capitalism. God damn, I want some of that. You know.
Speaker 3:
That's Well what if we take it a step further, right, because that still has like an element of exchange to it. It does.
Speaker 2:
You know what I mean. It does.
Speaker 3:
And even that word exchange. It's so people try and think of a future. You know a better future, and it still has some kind of bartering or some kind of exchange which is no different to money, it's exactly the same.
Speaker 2:
Yeah.
Speaker 3:
But if you take all of that away, what do you have?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, well, I mean, you know it's that sort of the, the, the mi casa esu casa type of a thing. You know you need some eggs it's chicken coops back there don't even ask. Don't even ask because we're all helping each other survive, and that's probably I don't know for sure, but that's probably how they operate. If they go as far as to help each other with their medical expenses and things like that.
Speaker 2:
We are a community, we are a third dynamic. What do you need? It's over there, and then you come over. What do you need? But it's over there and that's it.
Speaker 2:
And that's it. You don't even look at it from the viewpoint of exchange, and no it. You don't even look at it from the viewpoint of exchange, and no, it's not socialism. It's, you know, it's, it's, it's, that's. That is a completely different concept. This is, is, is you're aiding each other's survival because you want to do that. You're not being good because of you're being good because that's what you do. You're not being good to get in, get into heaven. You're being good because's what you do. You're not being good to get into heaven.
Speaker 3:
You're being good, because, well, what else would you do? And the thing is, people, to their core, come into this world with things they like doing and abilities that they're good at. Some people are great at making roads, and they'd be happy to do so. Some people at making roads and they'd be happy to do so. Some people love gardening, and they'd be happy to do so. Some people love food and they're happy to cook, like everything balances out to the core. But a lot of these concepts, I believe, really distort us, and I see a lot of people with just broken dreams completely broken.
Speaker 2:
You know, talented at one thing, but doing a job they hate, yeah, and that's not god. Yeah, and that that's, yeah, that's, and then that's. That is the issue is. Well, you know, and it's in it, if you go beyond capitalism, it's not just capitalism, that is not good, it's. I see somebody that's at a disadvantage and I'm going to capitalize on it.
Speaker 2:
I I don't have any money and I need to pay my bills and I need to sell my playstation. Well, I'll tell you what. I'll give you 300 for that playstation 5 right now. Well, I'm advertising it for 400, yeah, but you know, you need the money. Yeah, I am so sick of that. I am so sick of that from scientologists, I'm so sick of that from whoever is. That is not okay. You do not capitalize off of somebody else's misery, danger, need or want. That is the opposite of that, and I think that that's what you know love thy fellow man. You know that's where that comes from. Is it's got to be? Uh, you know, there has to be some restraint, completely on that type of a thing and take care of one another. I think that that was the original intent with a lot of those stories in the bible, the quran, um, buddha's works, especially um, yes. So, yes, you know the intent. The intent was there. It's just what does everybody else do with it? Or do they just ignore it because they're all one in the same?
Speaker 3:
ability to, yeah, but do they have the ability to behave in such a way as well?
Speaker 3:
yeah, the capacity like I was saying before to you, before we started recording, reading through the Bible, I believe this word God is actually you. Scientology would call it the thetan, that is clear, where your voice is so strong, unaberated, it speaks. You do, it speaks, you do, it speaks you do, because even in the bible, um, a lot of, a lot of the stories in there, you can see the conflict when they're conversing with god. You know god is asking them to do these great things. You know noah, for example. God told him build a boat.
Speaker 3:
There's a flood coming, you know, and in that story he dedicated himself to that and um, and I believe he actually had to grow the trees because back in those days they didn't die as young as us, right? So this man grew the tree. So imagine how long it would have taken to grow the trees to size to make this 300 or 400 meter boat, however big it was, the ark um to build it. And then, even right at the time when the flood started, the rain started pouring. His own son didn't believe him and took his family and separated from them. And Noah knew he was going to his death. He knew it, he pleaded with him, but inside of him. God spoke so loudly keep pushing, keep pushing, keep pushing, keep pushing.
Speaker 2:
This was his knowingness.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, yeah. So was that another being? Or was that Noah and his God?
Speaker 2:
In the things that I've read. I'm like there it is. Yeah, it's truth. I know something to be true and I'm going to act on it and that's. You know, we are all gods. You don't have to point to somebody else or anything like that. Maybe it's comforting to know that and that something else is watching out for you, or whatever.
Speaker 2:
I had that thing when I was living in an apartment in Kansas City where I woke up after a band practice. I'd taken a nap because it wore me out playing in the band. I went into the bathroom, used the bathroom and, as I walked to the sink to wash my hands, this voice my voice, whatever you want to call it said I will not let it hurt me. And I was like what the hell is that? And you know, it was sort of like Bill Cosby and the Noah thing. Noah, it was quite literally like that I will not let it hurt me. I'm like where the hell is that coming from? I'm washing my hands, I walk out of the bathroom, close the medicine cabinet door because it was open.
Speaker 2:
As I do that, and I step one foot halfway out the door, this five foot by four foot plate glass mirror crashes down onto the sink and into the toilet and there was a megalodon, tooth-shaped piece of mirror that went into the toilet where I was just sitting the size of my torso. It would have gone right the hell through me. They heard the crash in the next building, on the first floor, and I was on the third. That's how loud it was. My ears were ringing. Eddie Cairo, who used to do the podcast with me, was in the living room. It scared him so bad he threw up. I have no explanation for that. Yeah, I have no explanation for that, and I only relay that story just for the fact that it was that knowingness. I won't let it hurt me.
Speaker 3:
What if that was the ultimate clear? What if that was the voice of God?
Speaker 2:
You know, some people say well yeah yeah, we were talking about the other day we were talking about spirit guides. You know, some people say well, just saying yeah, yeah, just saying we were talking about the other day, we were talking about spirit guides, you know.
Speaker 3:
And then these people say you know my spirit guide, you know, and and this, this, this wasn't some other, this wasn't some other voice.
Speaker 2:
There weren't any harps or anything like that. It was my voice and it said I won't let it hurt me. And I'm I'm sort of like what's the context of this? I mean I won't let it hurt me, what? But I could. I could I've got it still, got the video of it and and the the aftermath of it and everything, and it was. I mean it could have been incredibly dangerous with with glass like that and I worked with glass for years having frame shots. I know how dangerous glass is. I won't let it hurt.
Speaker 2:
So you know you hear these stories all the time from people that have the same thing happen. You know there are a dime a dozen on YouTube and TikTok and everything. These near-death experiences and something told them. You know these close call videos. I mean they have compilations, compilations of these things on camera every goddamn day. If somebody's recording dozens of these things that happened where people just were in the right place at the right time, and you go, there's no way that just happened that is because we are all gods, in my estimation and I think we can all confidently say we've had some kind of experience, maybe not as intense, even smaller yeah but I, I, it would surprise me if somebody had never had such an experience like that, where something yeah, it would surprise me very much.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, never had such an experience like that where- something?
Speaker 2:
yeah, it would surprise me very much. Yeah, or could happen, but didn't, or did happen and shouldn't have.
Speaker 3:
And what I find funny is yeah go.
Speaker 2:
And it shouldn't have happened, but did, and they made something happen that was either superhuman or just completely, completely something that you have never, ever seen before and they've never, ever seen before. But they made it happen either in the physical universe or you know, even the spiritual universe. But somebody's going to say, well, do you have proof? No, you don't necessarily need proof, you know that you did that yeah, yeah, that's a funny word too.
Speaker 2:
Proof proof and and no, you know these, these, these words. Knowing this proof is you know, so that you know the root of everything is what is in the derivation and where it came from and what it originally meant and and all of that. So that's, you know. That's kind of ties this whole thing in a neat little bow. Is the semantics of things, their derivations, what they originally meant, what was originally being conveyed, who wrote it? What was the source, what were they trying to say? Is an allegory, is an analogy, what have you? But you know, at the end of the day, think for yourself. And what's you know? We're not trying to tell you anything with the podcast. We're just saying isn't it interesting? Did you ever think about? You know, we're doing sort of jerry seinfeld type of thing of have you ever noticed?
Speaker 3:
yeah, yeah, yeah it's.
Speaker 2:
It's food for thought and it should empower you to to look around your environment and go yeah, I am in control of this, especially now with a lot of the stuff that's going on globally and geopolitically and everything like that. We have to take care of each other. We have to be each other's friends. We have to to to love one another, have affinity for each other, grant people beingness and do the things that you need to do for your group and for your friends and especially your family. But sometimes the definition of responsibility is it's not always doing something, sometimes it's doing nothing. We talked about that before the podcast as well. Like, like quentin says, people be people and then sometimes that's all you can do is just let them people yeah, as ron hubbard says, allowing someone being this yeah, yeah, you got to grant them being this and sometimes that's doing nothing.
Speaker 2:
Well, this. This has been a really interesting and fun podcast. Lots of different angles and points and everything and I appreciate you being here, Arthur. I'm not sure how long this is, but I imagine.
Speaker 3:
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:
It's a pleasure, and we're probably somewhere in the neighborhood of an hour, a little over an hour. I'll be interested to see we keep hitting the hour and hour.
Speaker 3:
More than likely. More than likely, yeah.
Speaker 2:
More than likely. We'll see you. I don't know if we're going to do one tomorrow or not. Maybe we are. It depends on what our schedules are like, but we've got two we're going to be putting out. Today had some rendering issues in Final Cut Pro. We'll get both of these out to you guys today on YouTube and on the podcast platforms. Take care, namaste, and we love you, thank you, thank you, thank you.
